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Becoming a Count or a Duke: Thoughts on Ascension Process http://www.hermertia.com/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=423 |
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Author: | Wysterian Labourer's Council [ January 19th, 2016, 12:13 am ] |
Post subject: | Becoming a Count or a Duke: Thoughts on Ascension Process |
Continued from thread here: link This thread has been created to continue discussion on the matter of the current ascension process of Counts and Dukes. The relevant posting information has been quoted below: Quote: Liserett wrote: Forgive me if I am a bit off topic here, but I think it might be interesting to have a similar system for ascension to rank count and duke. It obviously wouldn't require the same level of detail, but there's currently very little on the topic. Vassals ascension are currently processed at the sole discretion of their liege and requirements seem to vary substantially from one to another. I would love to see some sort of guidelines, as well as perhaps a small showcase of the achievements leading to the new rank. Involvement on various aspects should be encouraged from all, not only for kingship applicants. Gimpy IV wrote: The reason we don't have that system is exactly what you've stated, many lieges requirements are very different. I think it should stay that way, though if you disagree feel free to argue your point. Liserett wrote: Unfortunately, the level of my frustration build up in that aspect is too high for me to make a case without obvious and potentially harsh comparisons. I'll just say that I think it would be a good idea. If I'm the only one, then the case is dismissed and that's fine. But I do love transparency and a certain level of coherence. EDIT: I would hate for this message to be misunderstood. I am happy I worked hard to deserve the rank that was granted to me, I do not think it was too early or much too late and that is not the source of my frustration. This being said, other instances of rank ascension makes me wonder just how significant (or insignificant) the work I put into it was, at the extent that it is difficult for me to even be proud of having attained countship if it seems to be granted based what the word subjective doesn't begin to describe. It would be nice to have flexible, but clear and transparent guidelines. Nicholas wrote: Taking these one at a time:
Count ascensions now occur entirely inside of a recognized realm and under a liege who is a Duke or King, as all newcomers now begin under a liege. We have traditionally left lieges a fair amount of leeway in regards to rules they must follow and requirements they must achieve; two examples here include contracts that lieges may sign with their vassals (not under the purview of the Mercurian Courts) and taxes lieges might choose to levy on their vassals (same story). Much the same goes for requirements for ascension to Count, and I am personally somewhat inclined to leave it that way. But of course I respect your point Liserett; it bears more thought, and I look forward to seeing others' thoughts on this. Ascension to Duke is a bit trickier, as we have two scenarios: either a) the Duke is promoted inside a Kingdom - i.e. myself in Ertia or Sam in Perth (see arguments above, as they apply much the same way) or b) the Duke is promoted by the Council of the Crowned. In this case, I agree that it might certainly be time to update the language on requirements for promotion - the question then becomes in what ways. I believe that a good amount of the discussion on Kingship above is probably transferable. Thoughts? I'm really glad Liserett raised this point, as it's one we haven't touched on a tall so far. |
Author: | Darius V [ January 19th, 2016, 12:38 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Becoming a Count or a Duke: Thoughts on Ascension Proces |
Honestly, I agree the entirety of the system needs to be reworked, especially for the independent counts and dukes. While I adore the idea of having the council as my liege, which they are, I find it a bit troublesome. 'Ranking up' is quite interesting for independent counts as you need the councils permission, all of them (or at least 4 of the X votes), to establish more counties. The only problem is, it's hard to do this considering most of our Kings on the council are preoccupied with busy lives, and do not have time for Hermertia as the common count, such as myself, may. I honestly don't have a solution to this whole problem of trying to rank up as an Independent Count, the only thing I can think of is requesting permission to establish three counties at once but working on them one at a time. Even then, handing off that much land at once is troublesome and seems to over powered, at least lore wise. If the council granting permission to establish new lands is to remain, I personally believe the council should be elected members who are ACTIVE (Not trying to be rude here), instead of those who are simply just kings. Do I see this happening, no, I don't, as the current system has worked perfectly fine, in most cases. But considering the slow shift of activeness and in-activeness on the server things should be changed to make it flow more efficiently. Once again I want to say I am not targeting anyone in this message. |
Author: | Gimpy V [ January 19th, 2016, 1:00 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Becoming a Count or a Duke: Thoughts on Ascension Proces |
Lol, what you're talking about is active kings, we actually have laws for this and the voting numbers actually change depending on how many active kings we have. so this system is already in place! |
Author: | Scrios V [ January 19th, 2016, 3:48 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Becoming a Count or a Duke: Thoughts on Ascension Proces |
I would agree with Gimpy. I understand that it is troublesome at times but we can all be messaged if we are needed and we will provide our input. I also have communications with Kyn all the time so he is in the loop. I won't say too much here but what I will say is that maybe independent Duchies or Counties could change a little to reflect something like the King process once it is done (obviously more brief most likely). However, the liege of a realm should have a say in what goes on in their lands. I for one establish a framework so it is transparent to my vassals. Not saying it has to be like this but it is an option for a liege. Ultimately, the liege should be able to make the decisions for his lands regardless of what system they use to increase the rank of their vassal. |
Author: | Darius V [ January 19th, 2016, 5:09 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Becoming a Count or a Duke: Thoughts on Ascension Proces |
woops |
Author: | Caesar [ January 19th, 2016, 11:33 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Becoming a Count or a Duke: Thoughts on Ascension Proces |
I would personally like a clearer set of guidelines as to how an independent serf can ascend to count. Having personally built 3 settlements with good infrastructure between them and still failed to ascend to count after two 'campaigns' I would like a clearer route as to what qualifies as a country, perhaps in a similar way to as Digby suggested a check list for kingdom. |
Author: | Liserett [ January 19th, 2016, 3:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Becoming a Count or a Duke: Thoughts on Ascension Proces |
I don't think anyone is against clarity and transparency, the concern seems to be about preserving the individual Realms' leaders right to make their own decisions which I agree is important. I think threading this line should not be altogether avoided, it is possible to do with the right phrasing. Something like this could work: RANK ASCENSION (Count/Duke): Council of the Crowned [Requirements similar to ascension to Kingship, modified appropriately (e.g. serfs can't pursue Minister positions) with lower score requirement (if point system is chosen.)] Within a Realm: To achieve the next highest rank within the borders of a Realm governed by a liege lord, the vassal must receive approval from the highest ranking liege lord. The liege lord can only promote their vassal to a rank that is lower than their own. While the decision is made at the discretion of the liege lord, the liege lord is encouraged to consider the multiple facets of Hermertia's life when assessing the the vassal's achievements. These facets can include, but are not limited to: Building
Lore
Community Involvement
This would give vassals, particularly newly arrived serfs, an idea of what it means to be a citizen of Hermertia and what they should work on if they wish to attain the rank of count. It would also help dukes assess, on similar grounds, the achievements of their vassals while retaining their decision power. |
Author: | Wysterian Labourer's Council [ January 19th, 2016, 3:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Becoming a Count or a Duke: Thoughts on Ascension Proces |
I like this. It's a similar idea to the tentative requirements for Kingship - there's some disagreement over the exact way to count them (in terms of a points system), but we all agree what elements should be taken into account. |
Author: | Liserett [ January 19th, 2016, 3:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Becoming a Count or a Duke: Thoughts on Ascension Proces |
Yes, but the difference here is that for ascension to ranks of count or duke, the liege lord is simply encouraged to consider the different facets. It's a guideline, not a rule book, and helps everybody get a clear idea of what is important, based on Hermertian values. For ascension to Kingship, they become a clear set of requirements. The other advantage is that people who aim to become kings can get a "practice run" since the requirements are similar, it would help them from the start to know how to become model citizens. =P |
Author: | Wysterian Labourer's Council [ January 19th, 2016, 3:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Becoming a Count or a Duke: Thoughts on Ascension Proces |
Sorry, guess I wasn't as clear. I do agree with what you're saying - in fact, I would like to see the same theme of "recommended guidelines to consult when making a transparent decision" rather than "points to be checked off" in terms of ascension to King as well. But I'm getting off topic. |
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